Torah Pearls #28 – Metzora (Leviticus 14:1-15:33)

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Jono: G’day from wherever you may be around the world, it is good to have your company. It is time for Pearls from the Torah Portion with Keith Johnson and Nehemia Gordon. G’day, fellows!

Nehemia: G’day! Shout-out to Ozzie from East LA, to Maureen from Grovertown, Indiana, Barkala Ahman Ben-Tzion, I don’t think that’s his real name, from Independence, Missouri, and Cindy Simmons. Thanks for listening.

Keith: And I want to give a shout-out to Pope Benedict in Rome, who’s hopefully listening to Torah Pearls.

Jono: Hey!

Keith: I was there trying to meet with him, so I’m very excited about the way that this is spreading around the world. It’s very exciting.

Jono: Hang on a minute Keith. You said that you were “trying to meet with him.” What? He didn’t meet with you?

Keith: Of course, I met with him! But there was some confusion, I can talk about that later, but the exciting thing is Torah Pearls is around the world. I keep meeting people everywhere, and they know about Torah Pearls. And so, I’m hoping that the Pope will listen; I think it could really educate him.

Jono: Hey, you know, I have actually had some visits on the website from the Holy See.

Keith: All right, there it is.

Jono: It might’ve been him.

Keith: Yeah.

Nehemia: Now we do this program every week from three continents; Jono in Australia…

Jono: Yep.

Nehemia: …myself, Nehemia Gordon, in southwest Asia in a little country called Israel. And over in the Eastern part of North America, we’ve got Keith Johnson over in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Jono: How’s the weather there, Keith?

Nehemia: Umm…

Keith: Right. Well, there’s a bit of a shift. Go ahead, Nehemia.

Nehemia: Something’s different this week; you sound so much clearer Keith, what’s going on?

Keith: Well I have to say to everyone I’m very excited about this because we’re actually recording this particular show, and hopefully another one, from Jerusalem. I’m actually in the spot; I’m looking out the window…

Jono: Hey!

Keith: …not far from the promenade where you can look over and see the Old City, and to my left I can see Nehemia, not far from his apartment where he goes to Tal Bagels. I am really right here in the middle of Jerusalem, it’s so exciting. And so, I’m really inspired to do this Torah Pearls.

Jono: Excellent! So, Keith Johnson in Jerusalem, Nehemia Gordon in Jerusalem, and Jono Vandor…

Nehemia: Aren’t you in that city that has that terrorist living there?

Jono: Yeah, let’s not talk about that. I mean, I’m in a little country town in New South Wales. Hey, today we are in Metzora, Leviticus 14, verse 1, to 15:33. And it begins like…guys, come on, leprosy! It starts with leprosy! I thought we were done with the leprosy.

Nehemia: Back with the leprosy, oy vey.

Jono: All right, now, listen, listen, even before we begin, you know, I’m sorry, but I… Nehemia, I want to kick off with Psalm 119, verse 18, even before we start this, is that okay? Would you be able to pray a prayer, that our eyes may be opened because, it’s a difficult one? Off you go.

Nehemia: Yehovah, Eloheinu, Avinu shebashamayim, gal enaay vab-bi-tah niphlaot miTorahteha. Yehovah, our God, God of our fathers, our Father in Heaven, please open our eyes that we may see the wonderful hidden things of your Torah.

Jono: Amen. Amen.

Keith: Amen.

Jono: Thank you, my friend, thank you very much. Because this is the way it begins, are you ready?

Nehemia: Come on.

Jono: Okay. “Then Yehovah spoke to Moses, saying, ‘This shall be the law of the leper for the day of his cleansing.’” Now, honestly, Keith what we’re about to read…

Keith: Wait a minute because we’ve got to stop right there because mine doesn’t say that.

Jono: What does yours say?

Keith: It’s a translation, even though I’m in Jerusalem and I’ve got my Hebrew Bible and all of my sources here.

Jono: You’ve got your Nearly Inspired Version with you?

Keith: I don’t have everything, but one of the things it says in this particular version is, it says, “These are the regulations for the diseased person,” it doesn’t say for leprosy, so I’m wondering if Nehemia might take a look real quick…let’s clarify who we’re talking about here because, you know, it could be…

Nehemia: Okay, well, what it literally says is, “this will be the Torah of the metzora, of the leper, in the day of his purification.” Now, I don’t know if you know this Keith, but not far from where the two of us are sitting is one of the only remaining leper colonies in the world. It’s actually sitting on prime real estate in the heart of Jerusalem, and back, I think…I don’t know, like in the fifties or something like that, the government forced these people who had leprosy into a leper colony and put a wall around them and told them, in exchange for losing their freedom – they actually passed a law – in exchange for losing their freedom they would be allowed to live in this leper colony for life with a government stipend. Well, some time a few decades ago, I don’t know when exactly, they cured the disease commonly known as leprosy, Hansen’s disease, they found a cure for it, and so these people are now leprosy free but they’re getting a lifelong pension and…

Jono: Oh! Wow.

Nehemia: …a place to live in the heart of Jerusalem, and there are real estate moguls who are just literally waiting for these people to die so they can make their millions and build…

Jono: Oh, my Goodness.

Nehemia: …on this property in the heart of Jerusalem. But this tzaarat, the metzora of the Tanach, is generally understood not to be the same as Hansen’s disease, and I think we talked about that in the last program. So, whatever this metzora is, it’s some kind of different disease, and may Yehovah open our eyes that we can see those hidden, wonderful things in his Torah. Can I get an amen?

Jono: Amen! Amen!

Keith: Amen. Amen.

Jono: No, but Keith, when I think of a leper colony, I think of Ben Hur, right? I think of the movie Ben Hur.

Keith: Right

Jono: Because we…

Keith: Absolutely.

Jono: Now, how accurate do we understand that to be?

Keith: You know, the thing that I…

Nehemia: This was a communicable disease that people lived for years with, and so they were forced to live away from other people, so they didn’t infect them.

Jono: Okay.

Nehemia: You know, you had, in India you had the Untouchables. The reason they were untouchable, a lot of the time, was that they had leprosy.

Jono: Okay.

Nehemia: It was, you know, pretty accurate.

Jono: Alright, well, we’re going to get into it. Are you ready, Keith? We’re going to…

Keith: Yes.

Jono: This is how “He shall be brought to the priest. And the priest shall go out of the camp, and the priest shall examine him; and indeed, if the leprosy is healed in the leper, then the priest shall command to take for him who is to be cleansed two living and clean birds, cedar wood, scarlet, and hyssop. And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water. As for the living bird, he shall take it, the cedar wood and the scarlet and the hyssop, and dip them with the bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water. Then he shall sprinkle it seven times on him who is to be cleansed from leprosy, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose in the open field.” Alright, now first of all, honestly, I read that and think, that’s one of the weirder things I’ve read in the Torah. I mean, are there many things that rival that?

Nehemia: Well, there’s an interesting story about this Pagan, a Roman, who came to one of the Rabbis, and he said, “You Jews, you practice magic,” and he cited one of the sacrifices of purification, specifically the sacrifice regarding the red heifer, the ritual of the red heifer. And he said, “Look, this is magic.” And the Rabbi responded, and he said, “You know, you have your rituals that you do when someone is possessed by demons, and really what we’re doing with these rituals is we’re driving out the demon.” In that world that was considered a legitimate thing, that wasn’t considered magic. It was considered like, look, this is a fact of life, that we’re infected with demons and the only way to get them out is through these weird, strange rituals.

And the Pagan was satisfied by this answer, and he walked away. Then the disciples came up to the Rabbi and they said, “Rabbi is it true? Are we really driving out demons with…I mean come on, that’s some base superstition. Did you really mean that?” And he said, “No, that’s what I answered him, that’s what I answered the Pagan, because it’s terms that he could understand. But why do we do these rituals? Because God commanded us to do so, and we’re not driving out demons. It could’ve been a blue heifer or a white and black heifer, and the reason it was a red heifer is because God commanded us to, and we don’t need to explain the details of all these sacrifices.” Really what it’s about for us is showing our obedience to God even though we don’t understand.

Jono: Keith, go ahead.

Keith: I just want to say that the thing that I have found interesting being here…it’s so different when you’re over…normally I’m in the United States, and I’m opening my Bible, and I’m reading my Bible. And listen, there’s lots of wonderful things that come off the pages, but then to actually come here and to see some of the…what I call the leftovers of this sort of stuff that still exist today. I’ll give you an example. I was in the Old City and there was an Ultra-Orthodox Rabbi that was sitting at the traditional site for King David’s tomb. So, I go to him, and we’re preparing to do this section, so I go up to him, and I just start talking to him, and he starts talking to me, it goes back-and-forth. He says, “Okay, listen so I want to give you a great blessing, and this is the blessing I want to give you,” and he’s talking to me and he says, “hold out your wrist.” And what does he tie on my wrist, Nehemia?

Nehemia: A red string?

Keith: A red string! So, he ties this little piece of red string on my wrist, and so then I’m kind of saying, “Okay, so is this red string connected to the red scarlet string and the red yarn?” And all this back-and-forth. And it’s so funny because you wouldn’t even normally think about that sort of thing when I’m over in the United States. And the only reason I’m bringing it up is I want to agree with Nehemia. I don’t know all of the details, I don’t even understand all the details, but I thought about something. So right now, I’m dealing with this sickness that’s been spread around the community. There’s a community of five of us: Nehemia and Jocylin and Jim and Susan and myself. And it’s gone from one person to the next person to the next person to the next person, and I think about that in light of this idea of these communicable diseases, and that how is it that you stop the disease or how do you stop the spread of the disease?

Jono: Sure.

Keith: So, it isn’t just that he’s trying to come up with some rules and regulations and jumping through hoops. There’s actually something about this that is practical. And the practical aspect of it, I think, and I want to be challenged on this, is once we see that you have this disease, how do we make sure that this disease doesn’t spread?

Jono: Okay. Okay. And just so that the listeners know, you’re also…

Nehemia: Don’t sneeze on me next time, Johnson.

Keith: Well it’s funny because in my ear he’s coughing and sneezing and literally it’s been two weeks of spreading the disease. We all have this thing, but I mean I just think about that and even the colony that you just mentioned, Nehemia, that there were people that were set aside as recently some decades ago. I mean, to this day there’s still some people in that place. Thay may not have the disease but they represented this very issue, which was a real issue, that was taking place. I mean, imagine that you have that. Well, guess what? The Creator of the universe has an issue or way of addressing your disease. I mean I just thought about it this morning and I thought, “Okay, what if he said, ‘for those who have a cough here’s what you have to do.’ Okay, let’s do it.”

Jono: So, you do it.

Keith: So, they do it.

Jono: Now it doesn’t stop there, Keith, it doesn’t even stop there. We’re in verse 8, and it says, “He who is to be cleansed shall wash his clothes and shave off all his hair, and wash himself in water, that he may be clean. And after that, he shall come into the camp, and shall stay outside his tent seven days. But on the seventh day he shall shave all the hair off his body and his beard and his eyebrows…” his eyebrows! “And all the hair he shall shave off. He shall wash his clothes and wash his body in the water, and he shall be clean.” Man…

Nehemia: I want to comment on this section here, because I think that this is really interesting, particularly in the way that a different commandment has been interpreted in Jewish tradition.

Jono: I’m seeing 27.

Nehemia: Yeah, could we look at that? So, it’s actually 19:27 through 28.

Jono: Yeah.

Nehemia: I think these two verses need to be read together. It literally says, in Hebrew, “You shall not round out the corners of your head, and you shall not destroy the corners of your beard. Cutting for the dead, you shall not place in your flesh, nor a tattoo you shall not put in them. I am Yehovah.” The way this has been understood, those are actually four things here: you’ve got the head, the beard, cutting in the flesh, and a tattoo. And these have been traditionally understood by many Jews as a prohibition to shave the beard, and specifically the way it’s been understood by Rabbinical Jews is that you’re not allowed to shave your beard all the way down to the face. You’re allowed to trim it, though, with the scissors, but you’re not allowed to shave it with a razor, they say. And also, the payot, the little sidelocks, that you’ll see on Ultra-Orthodox Jews and on Hasidic Jews, you’ll see them like twirly. So that actually is based on this verse, they’re trying to fulfill this verse. The thing is though, if we understand it in its context, the context of the passage and the historical context, it seems to me that this isn’t actually a prohibition to shave the face and the beard. And I don’t see how it could be, because, well, we just read in Leviticus 14 is the commandment to…

Jono: Do exactly that.

Nehemia: …shave all the hair, including the eyebrows….

Jono: Including the eyebrows!

Nehemia: …and all the hair of the face. And look, there are some people who need to have their eyebrows shaved, there’s no question about that. Like those people with a unibrow. But anyway, in the interest of full disclosure, there is some plucking that goes on with my eyebrows, but I won’t elaborate beyond that. Anyway, so you can see this isn’t something that’s, you know…I mean, it’d be like if there’d be a commandment in one place where God says, well, eat pork on Tuesday. And then there’s a general commandment not to eat pork. It’d be like, well, wait a minute, was pork forbidden or isn’t it? And you don’t find that anywhere else in the Tanach, any kind of commandment like that, any mention in the Torah.

Here, I think the context is really important, the historical context especially, in Leviticus 19. If you look throughout the Tanach, and even in the passage in verse 28, it mentions for the dead. Well, what does the dead have to do with it? And if you read the same commandment where it’s repeated, which is…so if you look at the parallel passage, which is Deuteronomy 14, it says, “You are sons of Yehovah your God; you shall not cut yourselves or place a baldness between your eyes for the dead.” So here it’s talking about a similar sort of thing where you’re cutting off the edges of the hair of your head and placing cuts, which is two out of the four that we saw there in Leviticus 19:27 to 28.

Here it makes it clear that both of those have to do with the dead, whereas that’s not so clear for both of them in Leviticus 19. And if you look throughout the Tanach, you find out that they would shave their heads and rip out the hair of their beards and of their head, when someone died. They’d take knives and they cut themselves and actually, there are people who do this to this day.

Jono: Yes.

Nehemia: In the Middle East, when somebody dies, they’ll shave their head and rip out hair from their beard and they’ll cut themselves. And the tattoos are also related to that because, what they would do is, they would write the name of a dead person, they’d write the name of the person who had died. And there’s a verse in Isaiah that talks about how it’ll be a positive thing that people will put a tattoo that says on their hand ‘belonging to Yehovah.’

Jono: Yes.

Nehemia: So, I think what this passage in Leviticus 19 is actually talking about are rituals related to the dead. A similar thing is repeated in Leviticus 21, where it talks about…basically the same things are repeated in the context, it’s Leviticus 21:5, in the context of the priest, specifically for the priest. And there the context is also about not being defiled or becoming ritually impure for the dead, in the previous verse, verse 4.

So, what I’m saying is the historical context, and in context, what’s in scripture for these commandments isn’t just shaving off the sidelocks of your hair or growing a really long beard. The context is specifically shaving and cutting yourself as an act of mourning, as a ritual of mourning. Now I’m not saying that, you know, they didn’t have beards in ancient time; they did, most people had beards. But that was simply the style, and that’s why they would go to this extreme act of shaving their beard when someone died, as an act of mourning. The Torah is telling you not to do that because those are essentially Pagan mourning rituals. And I think that’s what this is about.

Jono: So, it’s more about…

Nehemia: Refraining from engaging in these Pagan rituals.

Jono: Yeah, refraining from resembling the people outside of, you know, Pagan rituals as you say. And I…Keith, I will admit, when I first came across these commandments, I understood them to say, “Hey, leave your beard alone.” And I think there’s even still, out in the internet web-lands somewhere, there’s an article that I wrote years ago that sort of expresses that.

But I’ve since come to the understanding, that which Nehemia has actually just articulated so well, that it’s not necessarily the case, and that you don’t have to have…I mean, I grew a really big beard, and you guys have seen it. Pardon the pun, but I really grew attached to it, and I really liked it. And I recently just sort of trimmed it out because, man, it gets hot here in Australia. And I just thought it sounded good.

Keith: I think, at least when I’m reading this, I actually read it from a little bit of a different perspective. When I’m reading it, I’m hearing, “Okay, so this is an issue of disease, and the disease is obviously not contained just on a person’s hand or wherever – maybe this disease is affecting, or some aspects of the disease is somehow all over the person’s body.”

Jono: Or, maybe, hidden under the hair?

Keith: Right, maybe hidden. So, then what I – and maybe this is too practical – but as I’m hearing this, I’m hearing because when I hadn’t heard Leviticus 19, yet I understand the need to look at both, especially if people are arguing whether or not I should shave or not shave. But if I’m reading it, and I’m hearing it, and I’m there listening to this being taught, I’m hearing, “Okay, there’s an issue of disease and what we now need to do, we’ve got to… once we get that issue cleared up or whatever, we’ve got to wash. And washing would then include for whether it’s the unibrow or it’s the long beard or whatever, we’re going to have to clean everything and clear everything out before we wash and then approach, you know, to be declared clean.

And again, the point, even for me as I’m reading this, I still keep thinking about this, and I know we’ve talked about this in Leviticus – I still keep thinking about one issue. And the one issue is this: What do I have to do to approach the Creator of the universe and He tells me? Like, that’s all I keep thinking about, you guys. I understand all of the details of it. So, what do I have to do approach Him and then He begins to say – and we’re going to go into the next chapter, we’re going to deal with the other aspects here; but all of it is about approaching Him and being able to be acceptable as I’m bringing forth the sacrifice or whatever it is that I’m doing. You know, that’s the thing that just keeps…it’s just the drum that I keep hearing in my head.

Jono: Yeah.

Keith: What do you have to do to approach Him? What do you have to do to approach Him? And if you have a skin disease you’ve got to go to the priest, you’ve got to be declared clean, and then this really interesting thing happens, which I’m sure we’re going to talk about, which is then, what do I bring? And I bring the sacrifice.

Jono: Aha!

Keith: So that’s kind of how I’ve been looking at it.

Jono: Yeah. And we’re up to verse 10, “On the eighth day he shall take two male lambs without blemish, one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish, three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and one log of oil. Then the priest who makes him clean shall present the man who is to be made clean, and those things, before Yehovah, at the door of the Tabernacle of Meeting. And the priest shall take one male lamb and offer it as a trespass offering, and the log of oil, and wave them as a wave offering before Yehovah. Then he shall kill the lamb in the place where he kills the sin offering and the burnt offering, in a holy place; for as the sin offering is the priest’s, so is the trespass offering. It is most holy.”

Keith: Question.

Jono: Yes, Keith?

Keith: Thirteen, Nehemia, at the end of verse 13, when you read…when you hear these words, “He needs to slaughter the lamb in the holy place where the sin offering, and the burnt offering are slaughtered. Like the sin offering, the guilt offering belongs to the priest,” And then it says, “it is most holy.” Does that make you slow down and stop? Or do you just keep reading?

Nehemia: So, I wouldn’t say necessarily that I slow down, but it does very clearly define here a category. There are two categories of sacrifices; there’s the Kodesh, the holy, and the Kodesh Kodashim, the most holy.

Jono: There you go.

Nehemia: I think we’ve already discussed this, how one of them has to be eaten in a holy place and the other one needs to be eaten in a clean place. And the difference is that the holy place means within the courtyard of the Tabernacle, and later the Temple. Whereas a clean place is anywhere where there is not ritual uncleanliness. So, this being most holy has to be eaten specifically within the confines of the Temple complex of the courtyard.

Jono: Okay. There it is.

Keith: Awesome.

Jono: And 14, “The priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and the priest shall put…” now here we are again. I don’t know if we talked about it…okay, I’m just going to read it, “…and the priest shall…”

Keith: We did.

Jono: We did? “…shall put it on the tip of the right ear of him who is to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand, and on the big toe of his right foot. And the priest shall take some of the log of oil and pour it onto his palm of his left hand. Then the priest shall dip his right finger into the oil that is in the left hand and shall sprinkle some of the oil with his finger seven times before Yehovah. And of the rest of the oil in his hand, the priest shall put some on the tip of the right ear of him who is to be cleansed, on the thumb of his right hand, and on the big toe of his right foot, on the blood of the trespass offering. The rest of the oil that is in the priest’s hand he shall put on the head of him who is to be cleansed. So, the priest shall make atonement for him before Yehovah.”

Keith: Aha.

Jono: Keep going?

Keith: No, no. Rather than continuing to read it, so let’s just…again, let me just be innocent. So I’m imagining I’m the person, and I’m the person who’s got the disease, and I’m the person who’s out of the community, and who knows, maybe I have a family, maybe I have, you know, who knows what my situation was, my income was based on, whatever it was…

Jono: Yeah, sure.

Keith: …and this disease comes on me, and someone says, here’s what you have to do to be brought back into the community. I wouldn’t care if I had to stand on one foot, turn around three times, jump up and say the word “Kadosh, Kadosh, Kadosh.” I mean the point is, these requirements are the requirements for that person to be brought back into the community, right?

Jono: You know what it makes me think, Keith? Yeah, last time we did read through the story of Naaman, right? And Naaman said, “If he had given me some stuff to do, you know…”

Keith: Exactly.

Jono: “…something more impressive, then I would’ve, you know. But now he just wants me to go and get in the mud seven times, what is that about? I’m going home.” And maybe if something like this was presented to him, he’d be going, “Oh, this is kind of mystical stuff here.”

Keith: Yeah; let’s take that passage, and we take Leviticus 14, we place it in there and Elisha says this, now here’s what you must do: you must do this, you must do…now all of us, we’d be like, “Oh, yeah this is amazing this is…” you know, this is the requirement that’s here? It’s certainly not…scripturally we find that there are other things that have happened to have cleansing and to have healing, but as it pertains to approaching Him, this is what He says to do, and we don’t have to read every sentence, but I think understanding that that’s what’s happening is, for me, that’s the parole for me. This is what you have to do to be brought back into the community

Jono: And if you had it, you’d be happy to do it. And this is…

Keith: I’d be happy to do it and I will jump up and down if it was declared to me.

Nehemia: I mean what’s important to me is, and I think we’ve read these before, I’ll read them real quick again, is two verses in Deuteronomy. First one is in 21:5, where it says, “Then the priests, the sons of Levi, shall come near, for Yehovah your God has chosen them to minister to Him and to bless in the name of Yehovah,” and that’s talking about the priestly blessing, “by their word every controversy and every manner of strife shall be settled.”

What it actually says…that’s the New King James version…what it says in Hebrew literally is “every strife and every plague shall be according to their mouth.” Meaning, what they say in matters of the leprosy is by definition what makes it clean or unclean. And then it actually says throughout the passage that the priest will proclaim it clean, or the priest will proclaim it unclean.

In chapter 24, verse 8, in Deuteronomy, it says, “Take heed in an outbreak of leprosy, that you carefully observe and do according to all that the priests, the Levites, shall teach you; just as I commanded them, so you shall be careful to do.” So, the way I’m looking at this is, that these particular passages, which…I’m not a priest, I’m a simple Israelite, and you know, in the Jewish world we have people divided into three categories: Israel, Cohen, and Levi. When they read from the Torah, they’ll call you up and say, “Okay, what are you? Are you a Kohen (a priest), a Levite (a Levi), or Israel (an Israelite). And I’ve always…my family has always been Israelites. So, we don’t understand this stuff because this was commanded to us, but they were the ones instructed to teach it to us.

I read this and I’ll be honest with you, I have no idea what it’s talking about. You know, we’ve got the raised thing, and the depression and the greenish and the reddish, and I’m like, “What on earth is this thing talking about?” You know, I need to go to medical school to understand, this sort of priest school. And what we need is some good old fashioned Kohanim to come and explain this stuff, that’s the way I look at it. You’ve got to be aware of it, but as far as the details, we’ve got to go to the priests because this requires a certain level of expertise that the average person isn’t expected to have.

Jono: Hmm. Clearly.

Nehemia: That’s my take on it.

Jono: That’s a really good point. And so, it goes on in similar detail to verse 32, “This is the law for the one who has a leprous sore, who cannot afford the usual cleansing.” There’s, if you cannot afford it, there’s a lesser sacrifice and so on and so forth. It goes on in 33, now this is…

Keith: I’m sorry, sorry.

Jono: Keith?

Keith: Yeah, I’m sorry, just one other thing I want to bring up, and I do think this is important. It always catches my attention because of my background and how I grew up in a very depressed area in Minneapolis. And I think about this idea of, “Okay, so if there were a Temple and, the Creator of the universe has this Temple and he says to come.” And I lived on a block, for example, where some people on our block were doing very well, before the neighborhood changed and people moved, and then there were other people like us that didn’t do so well. But I always think it’s amazing that the issue of economics, where he says, “If however, he is poor, and he cannot afford these…”

Jono: Yeah!

Keith: Verse 21, “…then he shall take one male lamb as a guilt offering to be waved, to make atonement for him, together with a tenth of an ephah of fine flour…” The idea being that he’s looking and he’s saying, “Okay, here’s the requirement, but for those of you that are not in a financial position to do what someone else can do, here’s what you can do, and it’s still accepted. And I just think that that’s…I don’t know, there’s something about that that blesses me, that there’s a concern for those that would not have the finances to be able to go out and, you know, purchase the big stuff…

Jono: It is interesting, isn’t it?

Keith: …but they could still have the same benefit.

Jono: There’s a two-tier…

Keith: Exactly.

Jono: Now, Nehemia, can I ask, does that apply to all the sacrifices, or just some of them? Or, okay, Nehemia’s got a happy guess.

Nehemia: I have no idea what he was saying because I went to get a glass of water. All I heard to the sound, “does that apply to all the sacrifices?”

Keith: So, I need you to keep that in there, all I’m saying is, Jono between you and me, it’s awesome. Except, there’s the concern for those that have the economic situation…

Jono: Yes.

Keith: …that they’re in. Now we can go to verse 33, continue.

Jono: Let’s just keep going, shall we? “And Yehovah spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, ‘When you have come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you as a possession…’” now this is what is says, Keith, it says, “…and I put the leprous plague in a house in the land of your possession…”

Nehemia: Come on with that!

Jono: Is that what it says in Hebrew? Does it say, “I will put it in there”?

Nehemia: Yeah, it says “And I will place the plague of leprosy in a house in the land of your possession, Yehovah.” That’s what I was saying last week, that this is not a physical ailment like the kind of things we are used to, like Hansen’s disease or, you know, things like that. This is some kind of a spiritual plague, that’s certainly how many Jews have understood it, and I think there’s some justification for that. I think if we look at this from a modern scientific perspective, I mean what on earth is this “a house gets leprosy”? I mean, houses don’t get diseases to the best of my knowledge. I guess they could be infected with molds and things like that, and maybe that’s what it’s talking about, but I’m not so sure it’s what it’s talking about. I mean it’s talking about “greenish and reddish and depressions” I mean…

Jono: Yeah.

Nehemia: What? I don’t know, that doesn’t sound to me like…I’ve never seen a mold like that. I’ve seen black mold; I’ve got some in my bedroom. So yeah, we saw in the story of Naaman, we saw in the story of Miriam, and we saw with Moses, through the three examples, that this is something that had spiritual significance, it wasn’t just a physical, bio-physiological disease, it was something that really was subject to a spiritual, you know, terms of, you know, it had to do with God and miraculous events. So maybe I’m wrong, but…

Jono: Okay you mentioned Miriam, right? Now that was a judgment upon her.

Nehemia: Yeah.

Jono: Do we assume that this could…

Nehemia: That’s right.

Jono: Is it possible this is a judgment here upon the house of someone that has stepped outside of Torah? It really doesn’t say, does it?

Nehemia: We don’t know. It could be. You’re right it doesn’t say…

Keith: Why does it have to be a judgment? Why can’t it simply be…

Nehemia: Then why are they bringing these atonement offerings if they haven’t sinned?

Jono: Well, this is the thing; we jump to verse 53, it says, “He shall let the living bird go,” he does a similar thing, “let the living bird go outside the city in the open field, and make atonement for the house, and it shall be clean.”

Nehemia: Which is amazing because, you know, is that literally for the physical house or for the people in the house? “Atonement for the house,” I mean, is this…the house sins and it needs atonement?

Keith: Well, it says, “it will be clean.” It has to be referring to the house; it says the house will be clean.

Jono: The house will be clean. Now we see in the next Torah portion…

Nehemia: The house sinned.

Jono: In the next Torah portion, I don’t want to jump ahead, but we see something like that, because it says, “As atonement is made for the Tabernacle,” right? There’s atonement made for the altar and things like that. Does that mean that the Tabernacle sinned or that the altar sinned? Maybe it means…

Nehemia: Well, no that…

Jono: That the people…

Nehemia: There I think it’s very clear. That’s a good point that kind of supports what I was saying, that it’s the people who are in the house that sinned. Because when we were talking about atoning over the Tabernacle, it’s really the ways in which the Tabernacle has been violated through the ritual uncleanliness…

Jono: Okay.

Nehemia: …in that context. But we’ll save that for Leviticus 16.

Jono: So, there it is.

Keith: Awesome.

Jono: “He makes an atonement for the house, and it shall be clean. This is the law for any leprous sore and scale, for any leprosy of the garment and for a house, or a swelling and a scab and a bright spot, to teach when it is unclean and when it is clean. This is the law of leprosy.” And there ends the leprosy. Everyone take a deep breath. No more leprosy. Chapter 15, Keith Johnson, take it away.

Keith: Well, I’m going to get some water while you two discuss this.

Nehemia: No, this one’s on you, Johnson. So, we’ve actually talked about this, kind of in a different program, and I’m going to refer people to that program. But then maybe we could just do a quick overview. Can we do that?

Jono: Let’s do a quick overview, yeah.

Nehemia: I’d like to get Keith’s input on that, as well, because that discussion that we had in the previous program, Keith wasn’t there, so I’d like to hear a Methodist perspective on this.

Jono: OK, so…

Nehemia: Basically, Leviticus 15 breaks down into four sections. Two of them have to do with the man, an issue that comes forth from a man. And I’m not sure, so are we still saying this is a G-rated program, or are we…?

Keith: Yeah, we’re G-rated.

Jono: Parental guidance recommended, but look if the word is used…

Nehemia: Alright, we’re going to try to do this one with the PG rating, and then for the more graphic details refer people to the separate program.

Jono: There it is.

Nehemia: I guess. Good luck. So anyway, we’ve got the male issue and the female issue. The male issue we can get rid of real quick because that’s pretty straightforward. So, in both the male and female, you’ve got the normal issue and the abnormal issue, the unusual issue. A normal issue for a man is verses 16-17, quite simply, when a man and a woman have relations, or if a man has a nightly emission. Under those two circumstances the man is ritually unclean till evening.

Again, the application of this is in verse…and I think this is the most important takeaway…is in verse 31. It says, “And you shall,” Leviticus 15, verse 31, “you shall separate the children of Israel from their uncleanness, that they not die in their uncleanness when they make unclean My Tabernacle which is in their midst.” So, the significance of all these commandments in Leviticus 15 is really about, if you’re ritually unclean, you cannot come in contact with the Tabernacle or the things related to the Tabernacle because that will cause you to either physically or spiritually die.

Then the next chapter, Leviticus 16, a signification portion of the ceremony for the Day of Atonement is to atone for all those times that the Israelites did come into contact with the Tabernacle and the holy things, even though they were ritually unclean. So normal male issue we talked about. The abnormal male issue is what normally would be referred to, or it’s usually understood to be something like gonorrhea. If you don’t know what that is, go Google it. But that’s basically…what’s being described in Leviticus chapter 15, verse 2, and on is, really 2 through 15 is something like gonorrhea, where a man has a continual issue even though he is not having relations. Now that puts away the first half of the chapter.

The second half of the chapter, we have two sections here; one is the normal female issue and the abnormal female issue. Just like we had the normal male issue and the abnormal male issue. Now we have the normal female issue, and the abnormal female issue. The normal one is she has her period. And when she first begins to flow in her period, she then has seven days that she’s ritually unclean, and during those seven days, she’s not to have relations with her husband.

Jono: Right.

Nehemia: Again, for more details listen to the other program. The abnormal issue is where she has one of two scenarios; she continues to bleed past the seventh day, into the eighth day. Or the other scenario is that she has multiple days, it literally says “yammim rabim,” many days. She has multiple days where she’s bleeding, which is not part of her regular period, and that’s usually understood to be something like a miscarriage.

Under those instances, she has seven bloodless days. And let me repeat that. So, for the normal period she has seven days altogether from when she first starts to bleed. For the abnormal one, she has seven days where there’s no blood that she counts. She’s forbidden, essentially, to her husband during that entire period, plus the seven bloodless days afterward. That’s the standing-on-one-leg version; there’s much more detail in the other program. Keith Johnson, take it away.

Jono: That’s it in a nutshell. And I just, before you do, Keith, I just wanted to mention to everyone, I will put a link to the conversation that Nehemia and I had…Oy, Nehemia, what, a year ago, maybe? I don’t know, maybe it was a year ago and…

Nehemia: Something like that, I think maybe it was more than a year ago.

Keith: First of all, extremely…

Nehemia: Just to clarify for the parents; that other program is not a PG program.

Jono: Nehemia swears all the way through it, so don’t have the kids listening.

Nehemia: No, look, we’re talking about, in very graphic detail…

Jono: Yes.

Nehemia: …as I recall, the commandments of the Torah.

Jono: It’s Torah.

Keith: Like you said there’s a very…

Nehemia: As it applies to adults.

Jono: Yeah, and there’s still…and let me say there’s so much detail in there; it was so clarifying that we still get letters of appreciation and comments of appreciation in regard to that one. So, it’s excellent. Keith, what are your thoughts?

Keith: I just want to say, first of all, I’m appreciative that you guys have an option for people to do that. For those of us who are, how can I say it…less interested in dealing with all of the graphic details, I do think there’s really something important that I was not aware of, in my background, having been a Methodist. And it just has to do with this issue of how important the issue is regarding, and I’m specifically speaking of men and women in terms of marital relationships, the relations that they have with each other. I didn’t understand the significance of what was going on with women, regarding this idea of not being approachable during that time.

And I’ve seen it go to an extreme, and I think I talked a little about this before, where because of not understanding what sort of the base is, the foundation of it is, there have been a number of interpretations that have really, if I can say this carefully, put women in a bit of an oppressive state that somehow because they have this thing that’s hardwired into them and during that period of their life, this monthly period that takes place where they’re separated from their husband and this idea of them not being ritually clean, that it’s actually been used in a negative and in a sort of oppressive way.

And like I said, I’ve brought that up before. I have since looked at it and appreciated the idea that God would give women this period of time for them to be separated and not to be seen as a punishable situation but rather as a place of cleansing, and a place of purity, and a place of all the wonderful things that take place in the women’s body regarding that. And that during that time, that a husband would actually see that as a blessing and not a curse.

Jono: Amen.

Nehemia: Amen

Keith: I’ve actually, as a result of reading this and understanding it and applying it in my own life, it’s actually brought me to a place of real appreciation, not only for my wife but for this very fact that it’s brought in. Now, I know that there are a lot of people that will say, “Okay, we’re getting close to the edge here.” But, you know, so many times we have this attitude, especially from my background, of my heritage, all of this…there’s no application here, it doesn’t matter, it’s been nailed to the cross, and we don’t have to worry about it. But this is actually something that’s really, really important both for women, for men and their relationship together. And we can go into greater detail, but I just wanted to give the perspective that it’s actually been a blessing to understand it and to apply it. It’s actually been a blessing, and not something that’s some great burden. That’s as much as I’d like to say.

Jono: Look, I’m glad that you’ve said that, Keith. In the tradition that I’ve come from, even in other people’s testimonies that have also come from similar traditions and background, you read about the Christian that says to the Torah observing individual, “Oh, what…are you going to kick your wife out, you know, when she’s on her period, you’re going to kick her outside the gate?” Where does it say that? And you get these ignorant comments, and there’s a lot of confusion

Keith: Listen, let me say this, though, Jono. And I want to throw a bone and you guys can stop me on this. I think that what happens is, we’ve been so conditioned to see this as sort of so disconnected from our culture, our lives, applying it, that, of course, we think that if you do attempt to apply it in your life, it’s just unattainable; it’s something that you can’t do. And I don’t want to be funny about this, but the blessing of this whole process of male and female, husband and wife being together, and then this period of time that comes for your wife…I mean, for me…I mean Jono, you’re married, but I have to just say I want to thank those that have actually been willing to discuss this sort of thing. Because Nehemia doesn’t remember this…I remember talking some years ago about this with him and saying, “So Nehemia, counting days, and seven days after this…when do I ever get to be with my wife?” And this was really funny because we…he doesn’t remember it, it was over a glass of wine. We sat down and we were talking about the counting of days and the difference between the categories that he just brought up: the normal and the abnormal. Can I use those words? That they basically…there was a difference, and I had gotten confused because I didn’t keep reading…and I got confused about it.

Jono: And a lot of people do get confused, yeah.

Keith: And they get confused and then all of a sudden, they…

Nehemia: Also, tradition enters here and that confuses people because they’re like, “Wait a minute, you know, this is complicated stuff, I don’t understand it, but I read this tradition that this is what you’re supposed to do. Okay, they must know better than me.” But if you look down into the sources of the tradition you find out these are actually things that the Rabbis themselves admit were takanot, that is, these man-made additions to the Torah.

Keith: Exactly.

Nehemia: And what they essentially did…and maybe we should use the word “usual” and “unusual,” rather than normal and abnormal…but what they did is essentially they took the unusual scenario of seven bloodless days, and they said that’s how we’re going to treat all usual periods. What they did is, essentially, create this oppressive system that is not what was commanded in the Torah. Now I want to bring up a passage here, which is Numbers chapter 5, because you say, “Jono, where did they get this ridiculous idea to send the woman outside the camp?” And it is ridiculous to me, I mean, you know, it’s moronic. But where they’re getting it from is a misunderstanding of Numbers, chapter 5. Numbers 5 is talking about when the Israelites are in the desert, and they’re in this tiny little camp, and Yehovah is essentially in that camp. We’re told…

Jono: Yes.

Nehemia: …that there’s the Tabernacle, smack in the center of the camp.

Jono: Yes.

Nehemia: And he says, in verse 2, “Command the children of Israel that they send away from the camp every leper, and every zav,” Now, what’s zav? A man who has this continual issue, something like gonorrhea, “and every impure from the dead, from male to female, you shall send them away; outside the camp you shall send them, and they shall not defile a camp, that I dwell in their midst.”

Now what this is talking about is this special situation where they’re in the army camp with God, and even then they’re not saying, send away the women who are having their normal periods, or a man who has just had relations or a nightly emission, they’re not saying to send them away because then there’d be nobody left in the camp, you know. It’s only the very extreme forms of ritual impurity, which is leprosy, the gonorrhea type situation, which is obviously extremely unusual, and someone who’s touched a dead body. Those people were to be sent outside the camp. Now, it doesn’t mean we should keep those people outside of our cities, because this is talking specifically about this camp situation.

Jono: Sure.

Keith: Right.

Nehemia: I think the application to modern times…well, I don’t know if there is an application today. But when the Temple is rebuilt, the application will be not to approach the actual Temple, because that is the area where Yehovah, His presence, His name, is dwelling. But even here in the situation of the army camp, it’s not kicking the woman, who’s having her period, outside the house. It’s just simply a misunderstanding.

Jono: I’m glad you brought that up.

Nehemia: Okay.

Jono: No, because I’ve had people say that to me even. All right…

Nehemia: This is where they’re getting it, they’re misunderstanding the context here. Even in the context, it doesn’t say that. So…

Keith: So listen, I know we’re going to get a chance to do two portions, but I do want a chance, maybe at the end of this one or at the beginning of the next one, to talk a little bit more about this idea of where the holy place is, because I had quite an experience there, and I’d like to bring that in the context of our discussion. So, we can do that on the next round, okay?

Jono: Let’s keep everybody on the edge of their seat, this is going to be…

Keith: Awesome.

Jono: We’re coming up to chapter 16 of Leviticus, of Acharei Mot is the Torah portion…

Nehemia: Acharei Mot.

Jono: …with some of Keith’s recent experiences. Before we do that…

Keith: Oh, and I would like to say thank you to Nehemia, because he knows for the last three weeks I’ve been saying, “How are we going to get through 15? How are we going to get through 15?” I want to thank you Nehemia, you were very sensitive. Jono, I appreciate it…

Nehemia: Was that relatively painless?

Jono: That was in a nutshell; this is probably a record, you know. But now, before we go, I need to clear something up. I think I’ve stumbled onto something big here, and I just want to clear it up with you guys. In verse 22, “Whoever touches anything that she sat on shall wash his clothes and bathe in water and be unclean until evening.” Right? Now, “…anything on which she sits,” it goes on to say, if he touches it. Now, what I want to know in all seriousness, Nehemia, Keith, is this a Torah precedent for leaving the toilet seat up at least one week of the month?

Keith: And folks, this was a great show…

Nehemia: Before we end, though, can I, in all seriousness, now, joking aside, read Ezekiel 18? And maybe I’ve read this before, but I want to read it again. It’s talking about two different scenarios, of a person who’s righteous, and a person who’s not righteous. It talks about, in verse 5, it says, “A man shall be righteous, he shall do justice and righteousness,” and then it gives us a few specifics of things that he does. It says, “He does not eat to the mountains,” which apparently is some kind of Pagan ritual, where they would eat food dedicated to the gods of the mountains. “And he doesn’t lift his eyes to the abominations of the house of Israel,” meaning to the idols. “And he does not defile his neighbor’s wife,” meaning he doesn’t commit adultery. “And he doesn’t approach a woman who is niddah.”

Jono: Yeah.

Nehemia: Again, listen to the fuller program to understand exactly what that is. But this is so important that it’s listed here in Leviticus 18. How many things that it lists here, this is one of the key things; this isn’t some minor, trivial commandment, this is actually a very important thing.

Jono: Amen.

Keith: Okay. Alright.

Jono: Thank you, Keith Johnson and Nehemia Gordon. So, tune in next time when we are going to be in…

Nehemia: Acharei Mot.

Jono: Acharei Mot, Leviticus 16:1-18:30. And until then, dear listeners, be blessed and be set apart by the truth of our Father’s word. Shalom.

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